Independence Day

[andysocial]

It's interesting to contrast our Independence Day with other countries' similar observances. The one I'm most familiar with, Samil, is the Korean independence commemoration day. This is a rather long stretch from our own, though.

It is true that we "declared independence" on this day, but we took several years until we fought the British to a surrender. The Koreans declared independence from Japan on March 1st, 1919. They failed. The people were brutally subjugated and kept in near-slavery until 1945, when a foreign power (that would be us) gave them their independence.

I think we are unusual in not being given independence, but fighting for it tooth and nail. It took 5 years to win our independence from Great Britain. It took 26 years for the Koreans to be *given* independence from Japan.

Australia may seem like another former British Colony to us, but some in Australia say they are not yet fully independent, as their constitution stipulates that their Head of State (a ceremonial position, to be sure) is the British monarch.

What other countries have won independence, rather than having it handed to them as a gift?

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[rillifane.livejournal.com]

What other countries have won independence, rather than having it handed to them as a gift?

Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Montenegro, Albania,Romania, Hungary, Mexico, Columbia, Venezuela, Argentina, Chile, Peru, Bolivia, Uraguay, Paraquay, Norway, Finland, Poland, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Slovakia, The Czeck Republic, Kenya, Algeria, Tanzania, India, Pakistan, Malaysia, Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos all come to mind for starters.

[talitha-oy.livejournal.com]

It could possibly be argued however, that while those nations may have won their independence, many of them still have no Freedom. Mexico and Columbia still suffer from oppression and corruption. Pakistan has every resource tied up in war still. Serbia is a mess. And Iraq didn't fight for their own independence, we did it for them, whether they liked it or not. What also makes us unique is that Americans have always continued to fight for what's right, freedom for those who have it not. Blacks, women, etc. And there's always still more freedom to be fought for. We never lay down and call it enough.

[rillifane.livejournal.com]

Those countries have the systems that they have decided upon. and, in any case, that is not the issue. The issue is whether they fought for their independence.

And, viz Iraq, I am referring to their liberation from first the Turks and then the English.

[rillifane.livejournal.com]

And Iraq didn't fight for their own independence, we did it for them, whether they liked it or not

Iraq fought for its independance from the Ottoman Empire and then from the British Empire.

[andysocial]

I just knew you'd have an impressive list at your fingertips, old man. Thanks for the enlightenment, as always.

[oceandream9.livejournal.com]

Fascinating observation.

[ernunnos.livejournal.com]

Boy, how quickly we forget. While Americans certainly fought for their freedom, and fought bravely, they could not have won without the assistance of the French. Our freedom was handed to us too.

[andysocial]

I disagree. I don't want to denigrate the contributions of the French (and others) to our independence movement, but it was our movement that started and completed the actions. In the counterexample I stated, the independence movement was quashed and then decades later independence arrived as a gift from others. We weren't given independence by another conquering power, as we gave independence (grudgingly in many cases) to the Philipines, Korea, etc.

[ernunnos.livejournal.com]

So basically we're better because our revolutionary movement was fortunate enough to find an ally just when it was needed, while the revolutionary movements of other countries were unsuccessful in finding allies until after they'd had to go it alone, and lost.

I don't think that's anything to take pride in.

America was lucky. I'm certainly willing to celebrate that good fortune, but I cannot denigrate other nations because their freedom fighting movements weren't so fortunate.

[andysocial]

I didn't mean any disrespect to other countries, and I have a hard time finding any sentence or phrase where it would seem I had so intended. I was just making an idle comment about the seemingly more-common "uplift" method of independence, versus our more contentious "fight fight fight" method.

[ernunnos.livejournal.com]

I was just making an idle comment about the seemingly more-common "uplift" method of independence, versus our more contentious "fight fight fight" method.

Except they did "fight fight fight". And ultimately it wasn't our "fight fight fight" that won our independence. It was our ability to play off the world's (then) super powers against each other.

364 days a year I proclaim the superiority of the my country. You know I do. But if there's 1 day of the year to be humble, July 4th is it.

We almost didn't make it. It could easily have gone the other way. And the fuckin' French pulled our asses from the fire.

[andysocial]

You're right, of course.

[moderndayknight.livejournal.com]

Lucky from the atheist point of view, blessed from my point of view. It was an act of God that we managed to defeat the British twice.

[rillifane.livejournal.com]

Well, if it hadn't been for Admiral DeGrasse and his fleet along with 7800 French regulars (about half the total force) and a French siege train, its difficult to understand how Washington would have defeated Cornwallis at Yorktown.

Indeed, had the French General Rochambeau not loaned half his cash, 120,000 livres, to Washington to pay his troops he might well not have had an army at all.

And it was Rochabeau, a veteran of 40 years and 14 sieges who directed Washington's attention to the idea of marching south after Cornwallis.